No, but thanks for re-opening an opportunity to emphasis, yet again, the problem… for those that wish to have this thread live-on and have not bothered to read or consider any of the major points raised and discussed in this thread. Specifically to your post:
To sum up if you really don’t want to read very far: SN Token will be unobtainable to people who are on mobile unless mobile mining is a thing. SN Tokens will not be on any DEXs until SN Dex arrives, and this will not happen until SN supports execution. Good chance SN Token will not be available on CEXs due to FATF rules. Few of my non geek friends have non work computers anymore, study after study shows it is mostly all mobile now. They sure have their mobile ERC20 ready wallet, though. Omni is very limited market, MaidSafeToken is last project standing on it. Maid-ERC20 helps (greatly) with the “Everyone” part of the Safe name.
You make a good point, that it is vital not to exclude people who only have a mobile. An ERC-20 token isn’t the only, or necessarily best way to achieve that though, and since inclusiveness is an essential goal of Safe Network, it will be a very high priority once the network itself is functional.
Anyone with a mobile running Safe Browser has a way to interact with the network, so on the most basic level people could earn by carrying out tasks for others. At some point there will be a Dex on Safe. In-between I expect MaidSafe and the community to look for other ways. ERC-20 is one way.
It would be good to hear these other proposals? I also asked @JimCollinsonhis thoughts on the problems here it would be great to hear them. Have only seen “Wait for SN to arrive”. But that is a circular argument, ignores everything discussed in this thread that I quickly summed up, above. How long to execution, mining on mobile, etc… it could be a fairly long wait. Launch is not a one off event, but a process.
Mobile interaction will not include method to actually mine SN Tokens, at least at first… no tokens, little to no interaction. Earning and carrying out tasks for others lucky enough to have SN tokens implies a Mechanical Turk or similar type service which is likely going to require quite some time and probably SN execution to pull off. A Dex for manual work.
Maid erc20 is a simple, straightforward concrete step to increase access for everyone now. Before launch, after launch. The only argument against of note has been Tax implications, but even those arguments have melted away as an impediment to Maid erc20 in this thread.
Edit: I would only add, Maid-ERC20 also reduces the pressure on the devs to rush release a Mobile mining and execution.
Apologies, I didn’t see that as a direct question to me, and TBH, this thread has been tough to keep on top of, especially with everything else going on.
I’m actually not suggesting we simply wait for SN to arrive before doing anything, and I agree it’s all part and parcel of the launch plan, which of course involves redeeming MAID for SN, as well as other things like onboarding without MAID, invite mechanisms, onboarding without farming etc.
So the launch itself would be the starting point, in terms of designing solutions, and then working backwards from there. Because mechanisms for that need to be designed, built and tested. Perhaps they could end up providing a solution which could then be utilised earlier, and pre-launch, to facilitate some of the things we are talking about here? That would be an efficient and pragmatic way to go about it.
This things need due care and consideration, and our aim should be to de-risk as much as we can, and also be open about the benefits and unknowns, before we jump in.
I keep changing my mind on this. I think if it was known that we would be at Maxwell by X date then I would be swayed towards No. However i have increased the gene pool twice and lost my hair since I first started following this project so I’m well aware that we sometimes feel so close before something whacks us in the face. RUST rewrite , Parsec and huge team reduction. It feels like we are close but we just don’t know. With that in mind I voted yes. I think a lot of people may summize that divisions are around those who are interested in making money and those interested in the tech. I think that’s a misunderstanding. I think people are interested in wealth creation not for personal growth but for protection of the project. Many like me want price increase to support rather than for lambos.
I’m interested in easily increasing the 17k addresses that hold MAID. When I talk to people on the street, I want to be able to install a mobile wallet on their phone and transfer a little ERC20 MAID (0.01-0.001 davids) to them cheaply (with sidechains the transaction fee is less than 1 cent).
To be forced to move out from OMNI could become quite costly for me. I hope that I can keep my MAID in OMNI as long as possible, or at least about 10 years from now.
In Finland we have such a tax ruling, that we can choose if we use the actual purchase price of an asset, or if we like, we can use 20% of the selling price instead as a purchase price. But if we have held the asset for more than 10 years, we can use even 40%. So if I bought one MAID with 0.10 € and sold it with 100€ I can report 20€ as the purchase price and 40€ if I held it over 10 years.
I’m not sure how if the MAID - SN token conversion is taxable event or not, but just in case it would be great to have the option to hold MAID as long as possible.
This has been covered pretty extensively in this thread. If you had USDT on Bittrex or Binance in 2019, or know anyone who did, then you can check how exactly these kinds of conversions play out in your jurisdiction. Millions of users, billions of USDT converted from Omni to Erc20. Still looking for anyone, anywhere, who had a tax event generated from this 1 to 1 par value protocol conversion of a digital asset. According to some UK tax professionals (see previous link), the closest analog in the equity shares space is a share for share for exchange due to company reorganisation. This also does not trigger a tax event if there is no mismatch in share value (i.e. is not 1 to 1 par value).
Edit: At the end of this month Poloniex will also do a USDT Omni to Erc20 protocol transfer migration. Their support got back to me to say it is not a taxable event, but that is not worth so much honestly.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. Pure conjecture here, but if that is true then it is probably because USDT should never have a capital gain by definition. If you bought MAID at $1 and then it is valued at $100 at launch when SNT is alive, then it is a different scenario than the Tether-ERC20 situation. If you want to make the protocol switch at that time, then you can afford a good accountant and legal advise to make sure all your paperwork is in order.
Really, how so please elaborate? USDT is a trading virtual asset that fluctuates just like any other cryptoasset and never maintains its peg. There is even arbitrage differences between Omni and Erc20 version of USDT so if anything this is even a worse/more extreme tax example case than Maid, as Maid-Erc20 does not exist and would have exactly par value at the moment of creation.
In the UK, I dont think we take price at exact time of transaction, but use open or close prices.
If someone were using close prices , there certainly could be a difference.
Yeah, but the Maid-o to Maid-e seems like a more complicated scenario than receiving SNT in equal quantity to Maid-o, imo. Again, this is all conjecture until someone pays good money for top quality professional advise in a particular jurisdiction and posts the result, which has been already mentioned throughout this thread. Nothing stated here in the forum is a valid argument or a replacement for professional advisement. People need to do their own due diligence in the real for their particular situation when it comes to these issues.
Sorry just saw your edit. The example is not exactly the same, it is even worse from a tax perspective. Using the Erc20 to Omni (USDT-o to USDT-e) as an example: If you bought USDT-o at $0.92 cents when it was out of favour and it is valued at $1.06 dollars now due to a bull market. But the USDT-e is valued higher at $1.10 say due to better price discovery on Ethereum exchanges. Now Bittrex and Binance come along and do the 1 to 1 par value conversion in millions of users accounts: your 100 USDT-o moved to 100 USDT-e. The actual marked to market value of your holding just jumped, even though the par value remained the same. This is a more extreme tax consequence example than Maid-o to Maid-e (or SNT), since they do not exist.
Nobody is claiming that it should be or saying that you cannot. What I am saying is: This has already happened. Many people in this community may have been affected by this transfer, and millions of others certainly were. So we can draw on that experience and see what the tax consequences were in this more extreme example. So far I have been unable to find any, that does not mean that none exist. There might be a jurisdiction somewhere where this was a taxable event. Billions in dollars moved across protocols this was no small event.
The more I think about it the less I’m worried about the tax issue.
If we can keep the same name, MAID and just move to erc20 it shouldn’t make a difference. It’s the same token. I think those that want to stay with Omni should be allowed to.
The forced swap later down the line to SNT will depend on your counties tax rules, but it sounds like most will class it as the same as a company merger.
The next question is: will the current exchanges facilitate the swap?
Hi Zoki, yes you are right, but I think the question should be, how are we going to easily attract liquidity into our Safe Network environment?
We need a mechanism that creates a bridge from the old internet to the Safe Network, so that liquidity can start flowing into ‘our’ closed Safe Network environment. Until we have enough mass, this will be necessary.
This is a crucial factor to the success of the Network or the communinity/holdership will not grow.
Worse case is that a conversion to SNT within the Safe Network would get everyone stuck, because there is no easy way out or into the Safe Network.
Having been reading the entire thread I think there is actually a workable solution provided Maidsafe is willing to support both direct OMNI and ERC20 coin conversion to SNT. Those that want to convert some or all of their OMNI to ERC20 could do so to trade, sell, etc incurring whatever tax along the way. Those that want to buy ERC20 MAID now can thereby increasing interest and support of the project. And those that want to hold to the end (SNT) could. The only minor caveat is if an entire OMNI address needs to be converted at once, but this could be handled by breaking into multiple addresses ahead of the snapshot.