No, it would not. You just don’t get it. Child porn is just an example. Everyone has a different opinion about what is good and what is bad. I picked child porn to get the point across as I thought most would think it’s bad … Morality is relative … which is precisely why I think it’s immoral for the community to support everyone and you think it’s perfectly moral. Which thus entirely proves my point … your moral argument against it is a self-detonating statement – illogical morality. But hey, I’m a voluntaryist and you are welcome to your view even if I think it is crazy.
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PtP is a huge step however relative to Tor and even compared to FreeNet. The banksters (those who own the media and the State) didn’t go after freenet as it never gained much popularity. Here is what I fear … and yes this is FUD:
Murdoch tabloid headlines: “New Tor-like sofware pays child pornographers to molest kids and film it.”
Of course that type of headline won’t be on the NYT, but the NYT and it’s lacky media will follow up with a hit piece.
After that the State (pick your country) will work to build political momentum to go after ISP’s and to block SafeNet.
And then we are done. All this is for nothing.
I hope that doesn’t end up being what happens. PtP however takes us well beyond what Freenet does though and opens the door for a lot of political pressure.
You can’t block it. It’s indiscernible from normal encrypted traffic.
Doesn’t stop them going after encryption (see: UK), but heh, then the whole internet is going down so.
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Not true. At the ISP level they can block it. Running Tor in China is a nightmare for just that reason.
I’m not sure about that for safe (Tor !== Safe; they operate differently) . I think I’ve read threads going over this unblockableness on here before.
Just a question or 2 no implication intended, just your opinion asked for to get an idea of what you consider will be the case
How long will it take for anyone to find out since these sickos are ever so quiet??. Even if one sees an image they have absolutely no way to know there was a PtP gift given or who the sicko was.
And would the police even mentioned the 1 crypto coin they got after months. Not many to view it so get very little for it.
It may end up being more difficult to block than Tor … we will see. For more discussion/study on the matter, see this thread: Governments blocking Maidsafe - #21 by krnelson
That said … it’s a war with many battles … and until the power of the State is diminished, they’ll always look for ways to attack freedom.
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I’m not sure I follow … I’m a bit thick sometimes so …
If you are referring to my headline scenario, I don’t think they need to catch anyone … tabloids print headlines based on any obscure hypothesis. If the banksters see SAFEnet as a threat and SAFEnet starts to become popular … then they’ll start pushing their media outlets to dig up dirt … and from there, political pressure will develop and be exerted.
I am trying to get some sort of timeframe for certain stages that would occur before anyone ever knew it happened.
For instance if it takes 1 week after the sicko got the PTP to reach the newspapers then that is completely different if it takes 3 years for ANYONE to even know the sicko got anything, and another year before the media found out.
So there are a few stages. Basically each follows each other, one or two steps could be skipped in the timeline
- How long before the sicko crims feel confident enough to trust SAFE and realise it is actually secure and not some Police supported network designed to entrap them??
- How long before one of the crims even adds a PtP address after determining that it won’t be traceable back to them?
- How long would it take for someone outside their criminal ring to even know that one of those images even exists on SAFE
- How long would it take after that to find out that the crim got PtP for the image. Consider that it is impossible for anyone to detect PtP address is embedded and impossible to know a PtP gift occurred other then the owner of the address
- Then how long would it take it for it to hit the media that they got “paid”. NOTING that the image would get a coin or two in months because it is a low volume accessed item and the police may not even mention it to the media or even in court. (insignificant information to the case)
EDIT: it might take a year or more to get one coin if FR remains low enough (expected really). And it is worked out on each file, not all files with the same address. So if it takes 100000 accesses to get a ptp on one file then it takes that long on each one. Now it will take 100 sickos 1000 days to get the accesses to 100000 for the 1MB image. So one coin in 1000 days is very likely for a low volume file. The number of sickos is dropping rapidly according to international police reports I read a few years ago. Because the reporting of physical abuse is better
They’ll be on there within a year of it going live. There are plenty of people that file share this stuff, I have no idea how many produce it … I’d have to download it and see how much is real and not real and of the real stuff how much is original … I’m not going to do that … I have found the stuff before though through doing simple (non-child porn!!) searches on emule.
It wouldn’t take too much research to work out how to be untraceable – they (launderers) do it now on less secure networks. laundering PtP earned coin won’t be that difficult either - especially if the profit potential is good …
? How does so much of this end up on the web where anyone can find it already … even before there is a potential profit to be made? I think it won’t be long … they don’t just share with each other.
The media won’t care about any of this … as I said, if the banksters see SAFEnet as a threat and it becomes popular, they just have the tabloids headline what ‘might be possible’ and people will swallow it right down.
Yeah … I don’t know about that. Seems like there is more of this stuff around than ever … again just do a search for say ‘lolita’ on emule (or don’t if you don’t want to see some really sick filenames come up).
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To say the media will even do research to work out there is PtP and then run such a story, is a stretch. I find this perhaps the least probable.
50 years with computers, and I have not seen any. 30 of them with some form of internet and other networking prior to that and then the BBS systems in the 80’s
Really the police reports show that the real crims who abuse children actually require anyone who wants in to supply some new material. So the real crims are not releasing to the public ever. They know that is how they get caught. The police often identify the children and proceed from there and find the criminal through non-internet investigations. Some of the reports show some good detective work done. Then after they break teh ring they confiscate the computers etc etc. then from searching those computers they find the rest of the ring, & some use sneaker net and leave physical evidence that way. But once they can pretend to be in the ring, they can find the others - eventually
This makes no sense to me … it seems a no-brainer to me that they’ll do it if SafeNet becomes popular AND it has PtP, there will be video’s all over youtube about how people can produce video’s for SAFEnet and earn money for their work.
Well I just told you how to find it … it’s all over emule which is a popular file sharing network.
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Step 1: The media has to even understand what SAFE is
Step 2: Requires step 1 done to a reasonable level, and that they learn that people can be rewarded a crypto token/coin and that it is actually worth something
Step 3: they then need to learn that a file can be rewarded coin for people viewing an image.
Step 4: try and write a story that shows this and doesn’t make them the media look like total dicks because the public is going huh? huh? SAFE? networks pays people huh?
The best they get is a headline, the rest is laughable UNLESS they have a case to actually report on that spells it out and they can point to the case and people then go “oh how bad, whats SAFE? huh?”
And a case requires the police to even think the crypto thingy is actually worth enough to add further complexity to what can be extremely complex to start with. They often leave out these incidental facts, especially when its likely to be a coin or maybe two if running for years and worth less than a lunch
No, only the writer of the hit piece has to understand it - one person out of thousands … and there will be many tech articles written about SAFEnet within a month of it’s launch giving plenty of insight for other tabloid journalists.
Already learned in step one. You are making these people out to be idiots, they are not.
They are experts at doing just that. That’s why they get paid to write articles in the first place.
Laughable to us … but there are a lot of people out there who still believe 9/11 wasn’t an inside job. People are easy to con because they see the media and politicians in the same way they see clergy - as authorities on high.
They don’t need a case, to say what the network ‘can’ be used for … people will assume the worst. This is human nature.
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You think it’s immoral for the network to support content creators regardless of moral preferences? So what you’re saying is the network should discriminate based on someone’s moral preferences? How is my argument for network moral agnosticism and net neutrality a “self -detonating” statement (what does that even mean anyway) and “illogical morality”? If you’re saying I’m arguing for moral subjectivity well yeah I’d say that’s fair. But if you’re trying to argue that user a should feel responsible for user b’s actions because they farm coin and the network then rewards all content creators then I’d have to disagree with that entirely.
Let’s get this straight. The network is not a “community”. It’s not a group, it’s not a state, it’s not an association or friendship or tribe. At best it’s a program based on a set of philosophical principles and so far those principles have been based on Freedom, Security and Privacy for Everyone. Not indulging in any particular morality for any particular party. Why is that such a difficult concept for people?
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Good comment arguments of which which he constantly ignores.
“Moral preferences:” from the very beginning I’ve been referring to those as “values”.
In order for “moral preferences” to be recognized, he’d have to agree there is relative morality, but if he did that, he’d also have to agree that then he can’t do anything about moral preferences of others since those would be equally valid as his own (meaning, there’d be nothing to complain about - at most he could choose to not participate himself).
But as I’ve noted several times, he can’t even show why uploading certain files is immoral.
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But that’s what governments do, they govern, they attempt to assert control. That is what they do by definition: attempt to attack freedom.
This is not an arguement as to the morality of PtP/PtD or that of SAFE unless you’re trying to argue that SAFE et all is even more valuable because it combats that which attempts to govern us which one could in turn argue is inherently immoral.
I would have to disagree about the assertion about it being human nature but be that as it may politicians very may try and slander the SAFE network. But that’s politics not morality. Your argument is what that PtP is immoral because politicians will use it as an excuse to start slinging mud? They’ll do that no matter what.
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I’m sorry to say that the very thing you say you fear is what you are helping to create. This thread calls into question the morality of Maidsafe the company. While I agree with others that the network is amoral because it is a machine (which can not technically have morals), it is still programmed by humans who do have a moral obligation.
To me you have made your position very clear, that it would be immoral if Maidsafe decides to program the network to blindly reward all content thru PtD and PtP. I and others have argued that PtF also fits in this category. Whether you agree with this agrument or not, Maidsafe is already immoral according to your definition of morality because PtF and PtD are not up for debate as far as I know.
David and his team are wonderful human beings (heros of our time). I respectfully disagree that they will be making an immoral decision if PtP is tested/implemented. Their current standing decision to PtF and PtD is not immoral according to my definition. So I ask you @TylerAbeoJordan to please stop the FUD if your fears are sincere.
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If safe network is based on the relationship of “ants” well the crazy ant whom has a parasite that is infecting it brain get’s rejected by the colony to save the network or function of the network.
The ant colony has moral function to reject the sick ant to save the rest but we on the safe network want to reward the crazy ant just because our values think all content should be rewarded even if it is poison.
All rewards should voluntarily done be the user and let the group decide if the content is valued or not.
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Isn’t that how dogma are born? The cult of PtP? “You shall not speak ill of it because the men who created it are gods among us!” or “If you are not with us you are against us!”. Seriously?
Look, if the Safe project can’t stand the heat of an argument among people who actually support it, it is not going to be pretty when it goes live and people who actually are against it join the fun.
I understand how delicate the subject is but self-censorship is not the solution. Also neo and Tyler are actually having an interesting discussion about it, so shall we?
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