Can Safe Network become the Green alternative to Bitcoin?

I think you need to think about those claims. Neither sound incredible with a little thought.

The fiat system is doing much, much more work than bitcoin and moving money from one account to another evidently requires very little energy.

Similarly, if leaving Xboxes on used as much as Bitcoin, what about all the other appliances in all the other countries?

Neither claim makes sense. So I suspect you haven’t thought about whether those statements add up, but took them on board and are now repeating them. And calling people who question or challenge them bitcoin haters, is not a convincing argument either.

We see a lot of this kind of stuff online, and it pays, literally pays, if you learn to look at it critically and can figure out what is likely to be true and what sounds fishy, or is content free, manipulative of emotions etc.

I agree with you about those questions.

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Even if Bitcoin had a massive setback because of environmental concers, it could still survive as a token on another platform, as a wrapped token, a fork etc.

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It’s not just the cost of transactions. You go to any city these days and all the biggest buildings are the ones with bank logos on. It’s also the cost of printing and minting notes and coins. Storage and transport of gold. Worldwide. It all adds up. I think if people were honest with their criticism of energy usage they would also consider the current fiat system.

I wasn’t really thinking the xbox quote was correct but using it as an example of how people pick and choose what energy usage they criticise. Energy is waisted all the time and people don’t really seam to care.

I see Bitcoin and the Safe Network serving different purposes. With 12+ years head start I think bitcoin will be hard to replace as a money even though better systems may exist (Betamax).

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I agree, but it is also doing much, much more. Bitcoin is doing hardly anything by comparison and yet is, without dispute, consuming a large and increasing proportion of energy. I don’t know if it is even doing more for this, perhaps even fewer transactions over time but it’s certainly not a threat to the fiat system in terms of capabilities. The only argument I see these days is for use as a store of value, so perhaps that’s a more realistic comparison to make, rather than with the whole banking system.

Maybe we can agree that the situation is complex and needs analysis.

Looking at Bitcoin, what it does and what it consumes, and the trends it faces I think it has several serious and potentially fatal problems and energy use is one of them.

The fiat system too has its problems and we all see the potential to do better, so I’m not arguing for it as such. But whatever we think of it, most people are very happy with it and aren’t easily convinced that bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency has legs. Bitcoin isn’t likely to change that IMO, but Safe Network has benefits to suit many uses cases and many people will recognise that. The token supports those rather than being the focus or purpose.

One of the best things about Safe Network from both a technical/practical, and a marketing point of view is that it has least similarity to and no history other than as an ICO, with Blockchain or related technology.

When they draw the family tree of all these projects, Safe Network will stand out for having so little connection to any technology following from Blockchain and distributed ledgers. Few People realise this, but it’s very important. We can use this to point out that people shouldn’t make assumptions about Safe Network based on anything they know about Bitcoin, Blockchain and the rest of that space.

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I saw a statistic that said 70% of Bitcoin is mined in China. If true you would think the CCP would do something about it, unless the top CCP and local council chiefs are filling their boots

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I agree also.

I often try to make this point with other bitcoiners but as soon as they know SN has a token they dismiss it was another “shitcoin”

Also the fact that it predates bitcoin is another reason I’m in.

If anyone from maidsafe could answer the questions below it would help to onboard bitcoiners.

SNT is the only other crypto I have apart from bitcoin. The only thing stopping me being a maximalist :wink:

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4.3 bill, I would imagine it would be hard coded, just as in btc.

I dont believe so precisely.

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How can we verify how many Bitcoin are actually usable and not lost due to lost and damaged hard drives, death, passwords etc…

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You can’t.

But you can know exactly how many have been issued. So you can always check that there is never more bitcoin than there should be. The Bitcoin that have been lost are good for the other users of the network as the sacristy of the remaining bitcoin increases.

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I dont understand your logic. Is the scarcity of Bitcoin being valued based on 21 million, the issued number or something less than the issued number

It’s based on there will never be more than 21 million. There are always going to be lost coins so the real number of usable coins is smaller. So less supply and more demand over time makes the price go up.

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Found this on the safenetwork.tech site under the economy section -

“There is no set distribution time for the 4.3 billion Tokens produced during the life of the Network.”

Does anyone know where there is more info regarding the issuance of SNT?

How does price go up due to lost coins if no one knows how many are lost

Major brainstorm, @oetyng @bochaco and others will shoot me here :slight_smile:

There is a possibility here. We don’t do this and it’s a quick thought. So the current thinking is DBC. There is a DbcSpent packet on the network that is network signed, now owner so no identity leak.

That packet looks like this (simplified for a single input)

struct DbcSpent {
input: DbcHash>
outputs: Vec<DbcHash> 
}

So we get a Dbc we check the parent hash exists (the address of the above packet is the input Dbc hash which is the parent of any output dbc). If this exists AND the Dbc we are given exists in the output hashes AND there is not a DbcSpent for the Dbc we are given then it’s valid.

So quite simple really.

However @bochaco suggested we may need to add amounts to this, giving us

struct DbcSpent {
input: (DbcHash, amount)
outputs: Vec<(DbcHash, amount)> 
}

This means the Dbc genesis would have all SNT. As they are distributed to sections, MAID holders, shareholders, developers, core devs, farmers etc. we can “track” the amounts but not who to (no way to know the recipients). This gives us

The ability to know the total supply and ensure no more minted (as the network grows this is almost impossible anyway, unless a section is compromised).

At what cost?

Finding this out is a big task and will require getting a ton of packets, but that is probably OK for Audit purposes.

Any other good points about it?

It can allow us to see even compromised sections can do no more than mint the whole section wallet (not unlimited coins). So that is interesting.

There is a lot more like potential one way chain swaps (with a Dbc able to hold optional data) that we can do here. It’s a sleek new tool that I hope will open up many doors and really allow incredible secure, safe and anonymous (if required*) asset transfer capability, starting with digital (and digital).

*I say if required as you can keep the Dbc you mint for somebody as proof it existed and keeping your parent Dbc (it’s signed by you), then you can have proof of payment if required. Sounds scary, well not really the somebody is a key, that’s all whether they disclose their real identity linked to the key cryptographically then there is still no identity leak.

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Little bit about it here.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579797.0

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Cool - would it be possible to figure out if a section is indeed compromised? Sort of an alert trigger?

And if so can this section be shut down?

Nice brainstorming but section protection measures would be cool :sunglasses: perhaps it’s done by design, I haven’t delved to that depth.

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Thanks for the reply David :slight_smile:

I’m a little confused about the distribution. Say the network launches with 4 sections. One section would get a quarter of the SNT, the user/farmers/devs… of that section who have maidsafecoin already would get the equivalent in SNT. The rest of the unsigned SNT is there to pay users as they use the network??

Also what happens when all the SNT has been payed out?

Sorry if I’m confusing things. Just a pleb trying to get me head around it.

under Blockchain - Money Supply - it tells you the exact about of bitcoin in existence.

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It should not run out as any new store requests just adds more to the section.

We all are, natures complex and this is brainstorming, no bad questions or answers,

We are certainly closing that gap. The DbcSpent is in a different section from minting, or we can ensure it is etc. So I would say we are closing in on shutting some doors to bad actors here.

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It does but impossible to know how many are available to still be used.

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